Curse

Chthon · Jul 26, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

you clearly lack experience with a ranger

Judging by your join date, I've been playing a ranger a hell of a lot longer than you.

Quote:

Dont call your experiences a "fact" , that is only your opinion and its far far far from being a true fact about rangers.

Fact: Other classes have significatnly higher damage output than anything that can be achieved with a ranger.

Fact: Whether or not I believe, disbelieve, pronounce, or remain silent about the above fact is irrelevant. It remains true regardless. Same goes for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

While it's not the best, it can still be pretty good. And, I definately wouldn't say it sucks.

Like I said before, it's adequate, but inferior to other classes damage-wise. In the I-am-looking-for-optimal-team-builds sense, it sucks (as does anything else that's less than best). Sure, you'll kill stuff, just slower than if someone else had your slot in the party.

Tenebrae · Jul 26, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Judging by your join date, I've been playing a ranger a hell of a lot longer than you.

Yeah , because like we all know : Join date on guru forums = First day you played GW .... Fail .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Fact: Other classes have significatnly higher damage output than anything that can be achieved with a ranger.

Fact: Whether or not I believe, disbelieve, pronounce, or remain silent about the above fact is irrelevant. It remains true regardless. Same goes for you.

Fact: Judging by the way you say something is a fact based on false assumptions ( see above ) you dont know what the hell you are talking about

Fact : You lack experience as a Ranger , anyone can see it.

Fact : The many times you say your opinion is a fact and times you say it is true no matter what ppl say , believe or whatever doesnt turn your own opinion a fact. You have nothing to do here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Like I said before, it's adequate, but inferior to other classes damage-wise. In the I-am-looking-for-optimal-team-builds sense, it sucks (as does anything else that's less than best). Sure, you'll kill stuff, just slower than if someone else had your slot in the party.

Showing your lack of experience once again , a Ranger can do a lot of damage but its main function is not to be a Damage Dealer like an Assassin. Its as pointless to call Rangers non-optimal for damage dealing as saying that Mesmers ( or even Monks ) cant Nuke.

Read the title of this Thread , keyword "tricks" . Its not called "uberpwnage ranger damage dealing builds for HM" . Bye .

Master Ketsu · Jul 26, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

BHA is not the "only good elite" for a Ranger in PVE. That's retarded.

BHA is however the easiest elite to use effectively (Target caster, roll forehead, auto attack, derp derp), so I can somewhat understand how a bad player could make the misconception that BHA is the best elite.

Aldric · Jul 27, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Judging by your join date, I've been playing a ranger a hell of a lot longer than you.

Yes but he's not the one making silly statements and calling them fact.

BHA is a decent elite in some areas , utterly useless in many. It is certainly not absolutely useless as some in this thread claim and it is certainly not the only useful elite for a ranger as you claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Fact: Other classes have significatnly higher damage output than anything that can be achieved with a ranger.

True , the classes designed for damage can outdamage a ranger. Not really a huge surprise to anyone I would imagine.

If i cant be bothered running a support build like BHA/EDA/SY! and can get a fairly constant 80-90DPS with a damage build then im pretty happy. The fact that its not the absolute highest damage build possible is pretty irrelevant since I can still blow shit up in HM without too much hassle.

AtomicMew · Jul 27, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldric

Yes but he's not the one making silly statements and calling them fact.

BHA is a decent elite in some areas , utterly useless in many. It is certainly not absolutely useless as some in this thread claim and it is certainly not the only useful elite for a ranger as you claim.

True , the classes designed for damage can outdamage a ranger. Not really a huge surprise to anyone I would imagine.

If i cant be bothered running a support build like BHA/EDA/SY! and can get a fairly constant 80-90DPS with a damage build then im pretty happy. The fact that its not the absolute highest damage build possible is pretty irrelevant since I can still blow shit up in HM without too much hassle.

^Agree with everything, although BHA is obviously one of the better elites.

Also, I think that being ranged is a huge advantage that most people forget getting caught up in the math. It's kind of apples and oranges, comparing melee DPS to ranged DPS. Adding to the fact that rangers can do decent ranged DPS, it's pretty staple to bring a few shutdown interrupts as well, which melee classes can't really do. I think it's a pretty hard case to make that non-BHA rangers are strictly inferior to other classes.

Perfected Shadow · Jul 27, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

It's the range that I like about rangers. However is it possible to sustain Asuran Scan without using prep shot/marksman's wager? I've always found that I run out of juice a lot if I'm not using either of those two elites. Meh I guess I'll have to try with a zealous flatbow. It'd be cool if only expertise applied to all pve skills

Ugh · Jul 27, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

It's the range that I like about rangers. However is it possible to sustain Asuran Scan without using prep shot/marksman's wager? I've always found that I run out of juice a lot if I'm not using either of those two elites. Meh I guess I'll have to try with a zealous flatbow. It'd be cool if only expertise applied to all pve skills

I can sustain Asuran Scan pretty well. Just don't apply it if a monster's already low on health, as he'll be dying in a few seconds anyway. And yea, I wish they would at least make Expertise apply anything that's not a spell. If a ranger has his own stances and shouts, it kinda makes sense for him to be able to use others, too. Also, the PvE traps (Black Powder and Weakness) aren't affected by Expertise, which is stupid because rangers are the only class I would ever think about using them on.

Tommy's · Jul 27, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I admit I haven't read the whole thread, just the last bit, yes I'm lazy.
Secondly I admit I lack alot of experience with my ranger. (just telling you so you don't need to tell me when you quote me

)

But my opinion about BHA is that it is an easy elite but can be replaced. I hardly use it as if there are real casters which can wipe my party in no time. In that case I just bring concussion shot as most of the time, just teamwiping skills take a longer time to cast. Secondly I prefer to use some backfire/VoR mesmer, throw in PI in my own build, and BAM, they are dead ^^. So what I'm trying to say is that BHA can be replaced (it's still very good though) and then I prefer to use my elite spot for something else then. After all I dont like running slow ranged builds anyway, I prefer to run RaO builds with axe or spear (yes I know they belong in PvP and aren't that supreme in PvE but at least they are fun

) or turret builds with quick spikes. And I tend to bring my lovely pets with me ^^.

Hope I'm not going to get bashed for having my own opinion, but thats how I see it.

Fay Vert · Jul 27, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crucist Ovv

Hope I'm not going to get bashed for having my own opinion, but thats how I see it.

your opinion is fine.

I especially like the bit about choosing builds for being fun; too many lose sight of this aspect of the game. Fun>>>Efficiency any day

Chthon · Jul 28, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

your opinion is fine.

I especially like the bit about choosing builds for being fun; too many lose sight of this aspect of the game. Fun>>>Efficiency any day

So long as this is your attitude, then any sort of ranger build you want to run is fine. As long as you avoid confusing "fun" or even "effective enough" with "optimally efficient," there's no problem with that. However, some folks in this thread (not you Fay) are clearly having a lot of trouble with making that distinction.

So, let's go back to the basics here. IF YOU CARE ABOUT HAVING AN OPTIMALLY EFFICIENT TEAM, then every party member needs to (a) deal damage better than anyone else could in their place, or (b) prevent damage better than anyone else could in their place, or (c) heal damage better than anyone else could in their place, or (d) get the hell out of the party. Looking solely at what you can put on your bar plus what you can receive through synergy with the rest of your team, rangers cannot do (a), (b), or (c); so they must do (d). In a limited number of situations, the monsters will help you do (a) or (b) by presenting you with the opportunity to deal huge indirect damage through interrupting huge healing or to prevent huge damage by interrupting huge AoE. Your best tool for doing that is BHA. In the situations where the monsters don't help you out by being worthy of interrupting, you find yourself back at (d), since you can't do (a), (b), or (c). Unless of course, if you don't care about having an optimally efficient team in the first place. IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT HAVING AN OPTIMALLY EFFICIENT TEAM, then you can do whatever the hell you want.

Since there seems to be some confusion on this issue, I also want to clarify that I am not saying the BHA is always the best elite a ranger could bring in any situation. What I am saying is that BHA is the best elite a ranger could bring in any situation where it's worth bringing a ranger in the first place. There's going to be a lot of situations where you really shouldn't be bringing a ranger at all, but, if you do bring one anyway, BHA won't be the best skill for the situation.

AtomicMew · Jul 28, 2009, 06:15 AM // 06:15

(a)no one's confu(b)sing anything (c) you're saying, (d)cthon(e). It doesn't help that you're insufferably patronizing either. There are other elites that are worth bringing on a ranger. You can continue to polarize the issue, but you're not convincing anyone but yourself.

the slasher · Jul 28, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

personally, i love barrage... however, for it to work efficiently, you can't be a ranger primary(:OO)... either be a ritualist primary, an assassin primary or, if you have a non conditional team, dervish primary
assassin: critical striiiiikes
ritualist: weapon of agression+spirits strength(think thats its name)(barrage won't work, 2 elites, use volley+splinter shot)
dervish: vow of strength *.*(barrage won't work, 2 elites, use volley+splinter shot)

going ritualist can also give you the triple shot+night mare weapon spike, which is great

BHA... one of the best elites you can find in a ranger: i don't know how no1 has mentioned BHA+epidemic yet, its the best combo you can get for PvE...

cthon, or w/e your name is, acting like that won't bring anything to the game... obviously, a max efficiency team CAN/in some cases SHOULD take a ranger... you aren't even listening to yourself

a ranger can do (a) better than MOST classes, i dare say... buff your barrage, buff your triple shot, score 3-digit damage every 2 or so seconds, times w/e number of foes you hit with barrage... this is by far superior to any other SF ele you take.... a warrior/assassin can't deal that much damage.. they can only hit one target, except maybe, an axe warrior

don't get me wrong i love assassins, actually, one of my best developed chars is my assassin... but for PvE, i have him run critical scythe...

so, basically, what you need for pve is aoe dmg, and phisical aoe dmg can be achieved the best with dervish and rangers... obviously, this is considering you bring barrage or splinter shot, or volley... and couple barrage/volley or w/e with splinter weapon... you'll do SOOO much DAMAGE SOOOO fast, its just amazing

dont go calling rangers useless except for BHA... only shows another inexpirienced side of you..

though i must agree rangers are best suited for a secondary profession, to be used as mainly (didnt make myself very clear: they're sposed to be secondary, so you can attack with the bow, and it will be buffed by skills from the primary attribute of your primary profession)

this is my opinion

Tenebrae · Jul 28, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by the slasher

BHA... one of the best elites you can find in a ranger: i don't know how no1 has mentioned BHA+epidemic yet, its the best combo you can get for PvE...

It was , i used it in 3 or 4 zones / missions just to roll over some troublesome casters when there was no good H/H control . Now it just turned to sht , wanna know why ? : Technobabble.

With pve skills in HM you can kill foes in 5-8 seconds and with technobabble you get 3-5 secs aoe daze wich is more than enough to kill that "troublesome caster" and still recharges on 10 sec ( 20% chance of 5sec recharge on a staff wielder ).

Now BHA+epidemic is only left for a boss and .... with PI , YMLAD , EVA and with minimal tactics you can avoid taking BHA in order to bring another useful elite for the entire zone/dungeon except boss. For that matter you can even bring Zho and go Prep shot turret , Barrage or IA yourself + 3 overpowered pve skills.

Not a bad elite but nowadays , its power and efficiency has been greatly decrease due to that asuran skill imho.

G4ymBoy · Jul 29, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

your opinion is fine.

I especially like the bit about choosing builds for being fun; too many lose sight of this aspect of the game. Fun>>>Efficiency any day

^most important fact quoted in this thread.

I've always enjoyed your posts Fay and usually agree, i almost never use BHA i like glass arrow spikes so much more, and i really agree with Crucist Ovv, pet and melee/spear builds are very fun.

gw_poster · Jul 29, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

the whole point of bringing PI with BHA (and EVSS, Finish Him!) is so that you can take a mob apart all at once...works for me - PI the big boss, BHA the monk who would otherwise heal the PI damage (DON"T BHA the PI-affected foe! you want the big aoe or other damage spell to go off), EVSS whatever caster is around (DON'T EVSS the big boss - same effect as BHA in that EVSS gets an interrupt/kd off first), then tab whoever is below 50% hp (preferably the monk) and Finish Him! I carry my expertise quite high for the other skills on my bar, so I'm aware that three 10e pve-only skills take a big chunk of e initially, but it's worked for me efficiently through vanq'ing/mapping/skill capping/HM/NM dungeons/books, protector/guardian all chapters, etc...so I think I'll stick with what's worked for me....as far as energy goes, a zealous bow/cupcakes/radiant armor give me all I need so the 3 10e spells getting off first do not bother me.

smilingscar · Jul 30, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

. There are other elites that are worth bringing on a ranger. You can continue to polarize the issue, but you're not convincing anyone but yourself.

I'm convinced, though I was somewhat inclined to agree from the beginning. I run a lot of different ranger bars in HM, but that's mainly to keep myself from getting bored as I go for titles. Most of the time BHA would be a better elite for me to bring.

Barrage: I generally only use it if my bar is crowded and I'm still lacking a low recharge attack. I don't bring it for the multiple arrows clause anymore because I'd rather bring volley+another elite and have my cake and eat it too.

Burning Arrow: This has already been discussed as being not suited for PvE.

Expert's Dexterity: This is probably my second favorite elite, but it's quite inferior. I like it just because I get tired sometimes of my slow attack speed, but the elite itself lacks the usefulness of other elites. It's not a tie-breaker that makes your bar awesome just because you have it, it's just something nice to throw in sometimes.

Glass arrows: The damage is nice, I guess... I would rather just bring "I Am the Strongest" though.

Incendiary Arrows: Maybe if it is still had a 3 sec recharge. The burning itself isn't that great, and I'd rather stack volley with splinter weapon than Incendiary arrows with any preparation.

Prepared shot: I always want more energy as a ranger, and yet I've never found good place for it on my bar. I would rather synergize with my team and put weaken armor on a necro and bring body shot myself than bring PS. Honestly, I'm more inclined to bring scavenger's strike for e-management than PS.

I think BHA is the best elite a Ranger can bring in most situations. Everything else is underwhelming, in my opinion. BHA is a game winner in that it can drastically decide any match-up in your favor, at the cost of being a bit situational.

wiz12268 · Aug 01, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Only time I use BHA is when I do Duncan. Or maybe a tough caster dungeon boss hardmode, but usually none of them are hard enough to outwiegh barrage. Yeah I know I know barrage sucks, the fact that it is a 1 second recharge makes it the best elite (IMO), even if you don't hit more than a few targets. But barrage basically makes every bow a one sec attack speed bow. Sometimes more if you get an odd auto attack in between. But that might be server lag more than attack speed. But the sheer amount of times you spam barrage more than outwieghs its seemingly less dmage when comapred to something like sloth. because in the time it takes sloth to recharge you would have gotten at least 6 if not 7 more barrage attacks off. Although nothing says you cant have both.

But I actually run some pet stuff these days because it is different. My bar is generally charm animal, comfort animal, edge of extinction(unnecesarry in normal mode), I am the strongest, Pain inverter (which actually makes BHA obsolete usually), distracting shot, Barrgae, and one other PvE skill, generally Lightbringer's gaze or an asuran summoning or an Ebon banner depending.

I will use Poison Arrow for a change of pace, but just as simple to use poison tipped signet since it still works with barrage it just only effect one target.

Attributes vary, but always 13 expertise (9+3+1), 9 or 10 marks (8 or 9 +1), 13 beast (12+1), 2 WS (leftovers). If not running a pet build I thow WS up to 12 or 13, eliminate the BM (obviously) run a couple traps, usually flame and barbed and usually throw troll ungeant on bar. Or a thrid trap or trap buff.

I just do the pet thing now because it is different.

Also always have at least one, if not 2 heroes with splinter weapon and micro it on yourself, especially if you are getting Mobs that always group together because one barrage attack will use up the splinter weapon. And even with a 5 second cool down barrage is only 1 second splinter weapon can't keep up.

This is obviously for PvE. BHA is an almost must for PvP I would say along with the usual assortment of interupts, condition removal and antidote skills. Or run a rit main and max out splinter weapon and carry barrage as a ranger secondary. Probably more effective that way.

But in PvE as long as you have I am the strongest and barrage you can't go wrong. Add in the splinter weapon and it is pretty sick at least for a couple of attacks, but that is usually more than enough.

Tenebrae · Aug 01, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

Only time I use BHA is when I do Duncan. Or maybe a tough caster dungeon boss hardmode, but usually none of them are hard enough to outwiegh barrage. Yeah I know I know barrage sucks, the fact that it is a 1 second recharge makes it the best elite (IMO), even if you don't hit more than a few targets. But barrage basically makes every bow a one sec attack speed bow.

Theres no way in hell you are using 5 barrages in 5 secs soz , its just an illusion. For the bolded part , yes i agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

This is obviously for PvE. BHA is an almost must for PvP I would say along with the usual assortment of interupts, condition removal and antidote skills. Or run a rit main and max out splinter weapon and carry barrage as a ranger secondary. Probably more effective that way.

BHA for PvP , really ?

Fay Vert · Aug 01, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Barrage is great because of splinter, and because ANet upped the mob sizes in later content. Only stupid people say it sucks, or the pseudo elite, or people who are too chicken to disagree with the pseudo-elite. Barrage recharges in 1 sec, but your bow won't fire faster than its refire rate, which is why flatbows are the best for Barrage.

BHA was used for PvP in the early days and people thought it was brilliant, but then they realised that really it sucks so bad it was funny.

wiz12268 · Aug 01, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

yea it goes by bow speed now, that must have changed since I last tested it a long time ago. i remember doing it and it cut most bow sppeds by 75%. 10 autoattacks used to be like 22 seconds with a recurve, but you could get 10 barrages in 16 seconds or so, now its the same.

As far as the PvP thing, yeah I haven't PvPed in awhile so not sure what has or has not been nerfed or what has or has not been made obsolete by other stuff getting buffed.

So most of my thoughts are dated it seems.

Bottomline is that I run with the bar I mentioned, I have have zero problems vanquishing and clearing any area. Nor do I have any problems causing damage. Barrage or not.

But as some people see it is always easier to go in and say everyone sucks except you than to actually post something in a thread that you yourself may or may not do.

But when you look at the list of ranger elites they are pretty lacking in the damage causing areas. Direct damage anyway. So you use what you see that causes decent damage in a relatively quick time.

Burning arrow is probably the next best choice as it casues some direct damage and causes some decent on fire times. Even at only rank 9 you get 5 seconds of burning so with a 5 second recharge you can keep a single boss pereptually on fire (assuming they don't have condition removal). Yea you can keep bleeds and poisons up perpetually also because they last longer but they aren't doing nearly the damage as burning is doing. And AFAIK that hasn't changed, meaning burning is a direct 7 PIPS damage and not effected by resists.(although some are immune to it, so obviously don't use BA against destroyers) So even again high fire resist targets it still does the same damage.

Bottomline is the best "trick" rangers (getting back to the title) have in most hardmode areas is actually their armor and its inherant resists to elemental damage. That can't be forgotten either. My Monk, my Dervish and my Ritualist can all pour out decent amounts of damage, they just can't take damage all that well. My paragon isn't so great at dealing damage but he doesn't have to because he is buffing the H/H so even with mediocre heroes (lacking runes) he is decent in HM. Hardmode is basiclly all about the survivibility of whatever group you have. Not necessarilly about dealing damage. Although rangers can do both pretty effectively.

So if solo run with both healer henchmen, the earth hench, and the eagle hench (or a pet and pick a hench that does what it is supposed to do), have 3 decent heroes and you'll do fine. Heroes have made this game pretty easy. I left for a couple years and just came back at the beginning of this year and the game is so much easier it isn't even funny. PvE side anyway. Even in the supposed hardmodes. So it more than liekly isn't the tricks or the abilities of the player as much as it is the abilities of the 3 heroes that you can now bring. Because I have played more than enough to see that when I H/H it I do much better than when I am in random PUGs unless you find at least 3 other people that know as much as your heroes would.